The dreaded intelligence and counterintelligence service

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The dreaded intelligence and counterintelligence service

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If sabotage has driven you crazy, then you can use a turn #400 advanced save game as the Omega and they are unlikely to be able to sabotage you. It is on page 17.
http://www.forum.birth-of-the-empires.d ... &start=240



Okay, so I'm far enough along that I understand the consternation of how the intelligence and counterintelligence is set up. To me it seems like a rather large amount of credits/infrastructure has to be invested that is WAY out of proportion to just do domestic empire security and try to just prevent sabotage and espionage. I built what I presumed was too much, but actually had six attempts just now.

As the Klingons, I probably wouldn't try any sabotage on other races as it's so much like emulating the Romulans that it would disgust them.

See the attached screens plus note that you can tailor how much is invested within subsections to protect the military, the economy, and so forth.

Espionage should be risky and with low percentages of success and to sabotage ships nigh impossible as that meansyou had sleep agents had cosmetic surgery and plausible backstories who then got through the rigorous process of say the Klingon Academy, then make a suicide attempt and sabotage a ship. It's a bit absurd.

Also note the left hand score for military is 72% and yet within the screens it's zero, so it's peculiar.

Not only should it cost to try these things,but based on the length of required time, and cost of the project, and whatever the target is, then there would be a HUGE continuum of success and the base chances of success would be very small with modifiers. The whole point of recruiting a traitor or a politically motivated terrorist to do these things implies it seldom works as they could be counterintelligence agents themselves.
Screenshot_2020-04-05-15-57-49.png
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The point is that espionage may be cheaper than sending an actual fleet and then holding enemy territory versus just ruining the enemies' projects.

It seems unbalanced...and though you would expect cloaked ships to map tertitory or have a mission where maps are bought (with some being worthless or full of errors), it should be terribly expensive ad take time just to plant an agent with the longer that the spy is there, the more likely they will be detected long before the successful completion of their mission.

So it should take less cost and infrastructure to do domestic sector security as a routine aspect of security personnel. And then be horrendously expensive to do espionage and outrageously expensive to do sabotage.

You would expect levels of subversion based on the morale level of sectors where espedially following an invasion, then your enemies fund the partisans and guerilla activities. Thesemostly die despite the reputation of say the French Resistence which was more times than not a major failure.
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Re: The dreaded intelligence and counterintelligence service

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You would fully expect the Tal Shiar (Romulans)
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Tal_Shiar
and to a lesser degree the Obsidian Order (Cardassians)
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Obsidian_Order
to do these things with either seeing themselves as necessary to the state, or even heroic regarding the latter.

The Federation had Section 31 in DS9 and Enterprise
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Section_31
as shadowy spooks who seemed overconfident, with even a plausible story that their actions at Control ie the Federation secret AI programs actually in conjunction with leftover Borg technology in the Arctic ends up being the genesis of the Borg.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Control

These are better as spice and flavor within storytelling rather than directed outcomes that are far too successful and induce crippling in the game mechanics.

Also realize their success should be a function of the game turn as the former are very success at the time of late STTNG and DS9...not before...so maybe missions at turn# 600+ into the game, not at turn#300.
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Re: The dreaded intelligence and counterintelligence service

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At turn #300 in light of the galaxy being so unexplored in the alpha quadrant due to limits on the rate of expansion governing merely the exploration and subsequent colonization of those sectors, then it strains all credibility that say the Obsidian Order would know even what the sectors under the Klingons would be in the beta quadrant as the Cardassians are on the borderlands of the gamma quadrant, and would be blind about the map as they cannot travel very far even with a wormhole. Even the latter would be rare during TOS with some episodes in STTNG. That is a gap of 100+ years.

At most they would vaguely know the boundaries and largely by posing as freighter crews and or paying freighter crews to get intel reports.

There was ONE espionage mession in TOS with stealing a cloaking device over 79 episodes.
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Re: The dreaded intelligence and counterintelligence service

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For the first 300 turns espionage should be about getting intel reports about minor race details and largely unlocked by learning an increasing amount of the techtree. These races would be largely unknown. In GalCiv2, you couldn't even understand them without successfully finishing Xeno Communications and so it roleplayed this so you could eventually allow some exchange of information and start trade.

Then further progression then affects the other's culture through a pollution of subversive ideas with outposts even being able to use information warfare which dates to Tokyo Rose and Amercan radio broadcasts to Eastern Europe under the Iron Curtain.

It's an interesting system but those kinds of details then could say adversely affect as subversive devices to cause peace demonstrations in naive young people so a morale check. That would be a thorn in the side of the Federation as they foster diversity.
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Re: The dreaded intelligence and counterintelligence service

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Let me explain two aspects that totally mess up any military strategy games especially those of the 4x kind.

1. The AI doesn't care to limit its economic extravagence, but spends away as much as it has as it tends to bestow better technology, and thus early advance tech gives it an edge. That's an issue when it needs to develop a war-footing when attacked as it's got no surplus to speak of.

Healthy AI looks not just at surplus treasury but positive cashflow each turn as most AIs spend down the surplus but seem to anticipate better when cashflow is very positive. That varies generally as there are pre-programmed ways to create shortfalls like crop failure and bad weather or both to create variances in agriculture (crops fail from insects likem locusts or plant disease or soil fertility which was notoriously difficult during the colonial period) ie famines. Historically they happen and cause wars(you invade to steal their food or see Egypt during the reign of Anthony and Cleopatra) or plague follows costly battles away from home, and the men at arms die so crops don't get harvested. Same difference.

2. A good mod or program has so many combinations in the tech tree such that while infrastructure can be built, the better generation ships and troops cannot. Why? If there are no effective eras like an NX-01 and a Constitution class and and Excelsior and so on, then you could have advanced ships showing up too soon and eras no longer are meaningful. Then the AI and especially players exploit the techtree and you have non-canonical things happen. Which would be like longbows showing up in 1100AD instead of the earliest being 1250 AD and to dramatic effect at Crecy in 1340 AD.

That's no good and ultimately induces boredom instead of being thrilling.

Now that so many sabotage missions are happening, then it forces the player to sell natural resources that I had carefully created as a cashflow protection system. Now I'm selling off large caches of titanium and accelerating all infrastructure especially advanced intelligence agencies to cope. That means the Klingons will have a weird technology leap forward and so end up with advanced troops and ships as much as a 75 years ahead of schedule.

No doubt then this cascades as the AI accelerates the sale of natural resources too. That selloff then is deflationary. It at first generates large influxes of cash that is spent, but then this unnaturally lowers the value of titanium to deflate it as a glut occurs on the market. Not a good thing.

Look at the image. From Sudeten to Megrez, those sectors have large carefully built up natural resource caches with the intention being a mechanism to enter a war time footing. It's like after Pearl Harbor when the USA couldn't just crank out huge ships and tanks and artillery but had the capacity to. But the AI is often foolish and so won't create these as a surplus to draw down on.

Instead in a mod, you can:
1. alter the starting treasury of an AI empire as a balancing aspect.
2. Or you can gift the AI some valuable technology.
3. Or better they have a few excellent ships but can't remake them. Those ships can end up saving them against aggressive players.
4. Or in the code and based on level, then unit costs are cheaper by degree or upkeep costs less, or tech comes faster due to higher research rates (not a fan of that), or defensive modifiers,etc.

There are better ways to handle this. With a preset mod or save game, then the designer of that campaign could intentionally NOT build intel gathering infrastructure so these elements won't show up. Or better, the programmer lessens them...greatly.

Note that if you gift the AI with the troops ahead of time, they have at least two problems.
1. Unnaturally high upkeep costs as standing armies/navy/ships are hugely expensive plus these are all professional soldiers.

2. They will be tempted to use them to squash the minor races too soon and or the other AI empires plus the player too.

Historically excess soldiers just sitting around is bad for morale as they are bored and aggressive by nature and get into mischief and this cause insubordination. You want them hungry and wanting to pounce like a semi-starved feline predator. Not a fat cat.
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Re: The dreaded intelligence and counterintelligence service

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This is often "locked" by campaign scripts where the AI won't do X, Y, or Z as aggressive tactics against the major powers but may attack NPC powers like the minor races.
Do not do X until turn #150.
Do not do Y until turn #250.

Like that so the AI gets very focused on consolidating domestic power and eliminating the competition within its borders. And this builds a treasury surplus. A good program gives the AI some mechanism to improve the weapons or armor of the various troops or retrofit ships since it can't create the new ships...yet. That uses up some surplus cash.

It makes bribery possible. It means you can have nonessential ie non-military building like cultural or artistic buildings to enhance morale. It fosters domestic infrastructure or the buildig of trade routes.
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Re: The dreaded intelligence and counterintelligence service

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:evil: So here is the ugly result of just a few turns of maxing out the sale of natural resources with a glut of titanium to ensure that the intel is higher to protect my ships and infrastructure.
Screenshot_2020-04-05-20-56-38.png
I went from last place with a very well controlled economy and fine infrastructure with a surplus later to use for a war footing economy, to jumping up in the demographic reports since that infastructure then was bought with greatly deflated bargain basement titanium.

It rewards failure (a great Homeland Security plus No Such Agency [NSA] but trashed the economy) and screws up the game mechanics. And I could do this for deuterium and durinium too and crystals. It guarantees a win but the player actually loses as they will trounce the AI.

But at least the AI intel agencies will be neutralized.

I mean I know it's so poorly developed that I can unrealistically build intelligence agencies as a priority but that is really messed up.

If I were to do it again for the next iteration, I don't think building intelligence agencies in all six empires woud be better as then they all would trying crazy sabotage missions with poor outcomes due to a literal police state of security everywhere like the Romulans. If I don't build it, I likely have to set up 400 turns times six empires and don't build any of them, but then with every empire so armed to the teeth (a Scotch-Irish ie an Ulster Scot saying), then humongous battles will likely happen straight away.

Maybe I'll try 300 turns times six empires with no intelligence agencies?
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Re: The dreaded intelligence and counterintelligence service

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The AI will use any weapon at its disposal as legitimate way to win, whereas human players mostly are reticent to use every means to win. Some gamerson youtube make incomeby teaching others how to exploit games to win. It's peculiar.

As such the less expensive mechanism of sabotage will always be exploited by the AI and it lessens the appeal of BotE. It a shame. Real intelligence gathering is fraught with failure and often generates bad intel too. That how wars get started and then last forever as failed occupations. It's never inexpensive...but less expensive than direct warfare.

The classic issue in philosophy is, "does GOD exist"? If GOD exists and there is an afterlife with judgement, then it's implied that GOD is the basis for good and that rejection of GOD is inherently evil. Thus as GOD sentences our souls at death to mete out justice, then human beings must aim at being good.

If you don't believe in GOD, the soul, an afterlife, the existence of good versus evil and right versus wrong, then you are emancipated from the debate. Then you can do what you will.

Thus anything you do to get ahead can be justfied as such theology is based on a fallacy. You do whatever you want as long as you don't get caught as the justice system, laws, and law enforcement are all to real on the Earth.

But any subversive hidden tactic then is allowed. I wonder if the AI can ever be benign and do acts of beneficience? Why would it do so? Why would the AI ever play as the Federation as altrusists?
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Re: The dreaded intelligence and counterintelligence service

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Likely the AI has a core setpoint based on the empire being played and compared and contrasted to the morale system. "If I am empire X, and empire X's morale values are to be maintained as a scoring system, then my goals are different than if playing empire Y".

There is a cost to morality which limits what humans do but may not be emulated by the AI or even penalized in whatever internal scoring system that affects how the AI plays.

Thus the AI may willy nilly do every sabotage mission as it is unencumbered by morality.

It is philosophically defensible to even claim that without the threat of judgement in an afterlife, that no actual temporal morality can exist but is merely another control system to limit some while the extremely powerful through politics and wealth (by property of some kind), use to limit who is powerful.

This theme actually comes up in the revisionist look at Superman and the Kryptonian survivors in the film Man of Steel. The surviving Kryptonians don't believe in morality and thus can justify the genocide of billions to save 20.
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Re: The dreaded intelligence and counterintelligence service

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In the first post, I inserted screencaps to show the intelligence allocations. Now I tried adjusting them to see if I will still get a cumulative 22+ sabtage missions in 3 turns!

Here is how the intelligence points are spread, then specified as directed towards the Cardassians a 100% on espionage and sabotage. It's confusing as that would seem to be allocated to causing these, when truly what I want is for internal security to prevent them. I have no interest doing "spook" missions as they are known to soldiers and professional LEOs (law enforcement officers). They are disdained in American culture, as I suspect is the case for Russians and former East Germans.

Klingons would despise them.
Screenshot_2020-04-07-19-42-28.png
Screenshot_2020-04-07-19-42-17.png
Screenshot_2020-04-07-19-41-42.png
I'll report back what happens. The goal is to at least prevent Cardassian sabotage against my military.

It looks like they are protected at 72% and I have allocated every intel point at protecting against military sabotage. And if more intel points are gained, I will continue to play around with it.

Intel strength 1050
Internal security bonus 36%
Applied at 72% versus the military.
Reserve applied to internal security 856.
????

Could there be a programming calculation error? The total intel points are 1050 but the numbers report 856. 72% of 1050 is 756. It's an idiom but it's as clear as mud...ie it's horriby unclear.
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Re: The dreaded intelligence and counterintelligence service

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What's really bizarre is you just about have to use the manager function within the sector/systems under your control as it's so complex to manage the citizens working in the system, and when you have the intelligence points assigned, and as the populations grow, and as new infrastructure is created, then this manager will allocate citizens to new roles and the intelligence points may go down as the better infrastructure demands it.

You can try your best to turn off the manager and shift things around. It doesn't always work as it's a function of prioritization to have maximal efficiency and you may be building infrastructure, even pumping enormous money into building better security agencies, but you have a limited population. I guess one could just be patient or one could send a colony ship from a straining system/sector that has limited growth potential and send 4 billion to a huge system/sector where 80 billion can reside as many terraformed planets are there.

This is rather like an urban planning discussion as a mayor of a metropolis can organize and accomplish many activities that a mid-sized town can never do because they are constrained on growth potential. The latter reaches a limit.

It's supremely frustrating as the Cardassians are notorious about subterfuge and espionage (as are the Romulans), and they will start sabotaging soon, and I don't see how the Klingons can cope. It's an overpowered design flaw. I don't want to criticize this,but having 22 sabotage missions in 3 turns is not amusing.

I can overcome it by dumping titanium and crashing the galactic economy as before. That sent titanium into a downward spiral from 342 to 72 credits.

Instead I am doing controlled selling based on hitting a peak of 340 (it's my threshold value), selling successive lots to moduate the price to 300 credits (300 is my setpoint for metal pruce control). That is for the benefit of the entire galaxy.

[This is technical but in industrial applications of complex processes, then automated controls modulate temperature, pressure, flow, etc to create ideal operating conditions by set points and using proprotional band and integral modulation.]

You can argue that inexpensive titanium lowers costs. I believe that is like devaluing steel as titanium is in effect the primary metal of infrastructure.

Iridium looks to be like gold, but I suspect if I studied the research database thoroughly,that many buildings, troops, and ships on the advanced levels require it. Thus I don't want to mine it and sell it...EVER as I suspect it's so rare that whoever controls it wins the game. That is how I would have designed it (like the spice melenge in Frank Herbert's Dune novel).
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Re: The dreaded intelligence and counterintelligence service

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Some folks have been in effect playing this as Birth of the Federation since 1999. Then it was fan ported and became Birth of the Empires by two programmers. So I would bet that long time players who have played the game for up to 20 years prefer the Omega Alliance (the Dominion) as they have all the benefits and may be no weaknesses: due to strong ships and espionage.

Others get better economies and research and diplomacy, but one can control those things by yourself by strategic decision making.

The Achilles' heel to BotE is espionage so unless you have a strong ability in it, then you will likely ultimately lose unless a random event plagues the other AI.

That's my visceral response to the game as a gut hunch. With engineering tweeks through ship design, the Dominion may be unstoppable unless all the other factions gang up on them.

It's partially the luck of decent inital map placement as in one game, the Dominion were subsumed early before turn#200.
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Re: The dreaded intelligence and counterintelligence service

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My goal has been to learn enough to create a balanced save game where in turns of 200, 300, or 400...all six empires are somewhat equal, then allow players to jumpstart and have fun versus micromanaging to that point. Why? Because that is when combat conceivably exists that is accurate to Star Trek canon.

However, if playing as the Cardassians or Klingons, it's wiser to crush the other empires early through domination. That means the Cardassians should defeat the Domion and Romulans so they are the strong ones left with a major espionage bonus.

It just does not sound fun to win that way. Then no Dominion War would exist.

I don't think it's fun to seize the initiative and cripple other AI too soon. Winning is about a Superbowl or a major soccer (football) championship. Defeating the AI earlier is not compelling. That does not feel like victory.
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Re: The dreaded intelligence and counterintelligence service

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It's turn #306 and with every intelligence point turned to 100% against Cardassian espionage and sabotage, and directed to protect military targets, with a 76% rating, there have been no sabotage attempts. So far so good. With such a setting, the Cardassian chance of success may be so low that the Obsidian Order won't bother wasting their time?

The whole thing is confusing but the total intelligence points are 2229 as I went full blown overboard so nearly double what it was prior, yet it shows 76% instead of 72%????
Screenshot_2020-04-08-20-08-17.png
If this can be made more easier to understand, then I can write a guide of not only this but lots of obscure details.

And yet, I have to keep investing in security buildings as the Romulans and Dominion will also try for certain plus the Federation is likely to. Ferengi and intelligence agency in the same sentence is an oxymoron like jumbo shrimp.
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Re: The dreaded intelligence and counterintelligence service

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So since all the above, the intelligence points got to 2500+ and the percentage for the military was at 92% so it was doubtful the Cardassians could harm my ships or troops, but they still could attack my economy, research, and diplomacy.

And they did 20 sabotage attacks against research in turn #335. Aha! But I saved it prior. So I moved everything to research protection and it stymied them. So then they did 20 sabotage attacks in turn 338 or so against the economy, but again I had saved it prior. Reload.

This reminds me playing Bard's Tale which came out in 1985. That is what you had to do back then against some unfairly strong monsters.

Intelligence agencies are not balanced. See the general discussion where comparing the solar date versus a star date, well the actual warp distance at normal settings is smaller than what Star Trek the Original Series allowed. Thus the actual date is pre 2265, but terraforming is remarkably advanced. I think turn #340 is about 2266 given all technology at a balanced across the board rate as a player could focus more on propulsion and weapons and shields, but there are issues with this as I doubt sufficient number of systems are owned with enough infrastructure without this much terraforming.

There is no way the Cardassians even knew what territory the other empires owned nor could they launch a sabotage mission successfully as they likely cannot traverse my territory as the Klingons. They can barely enter my territory just as I can, so that means they can't actually do any sabotage missions. Pretend it's the Romulans attacking Klingon space. Same thing. They might be able to sabotage the borderlands, but be transformed cosmetically into a Klingon? Not in 2266. They might hire some Klingon miscreant like Durass' character, but it's beyond incredulity.

It needs to be severely dampened down.
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